The Unspoken Truths of First-Time CEOs with David Roche

Stepping into a role as a first-time CEO brings with it an exhilarating mix of opportunity and overwhelming challenges. In this episode, we dive into the complexities of leadership with David Roche, an executive coach passionate about guiding new CEOs through their transformative journeys. Roche eloquently articulates the often-unspoken challenges of leadership—most notably, the sense of isolation that can make this critical transition so daunting.

Throughout the conversation, he shares personal anecdotes and insights drawn from years of experience, underscoring the essential nature of mentorship and the power of vulnerability. Understanding that seeking help is not a sign of weakness, but rather a step towards growth, becomes a recurring theme. Roche emphasizes how successful leaders benefit tremendously from having someone in their corner, providing both unconditional support and constructive feedback.

Listeners will discover practical strategies for fostering trust and accountability within their teams while also recognizing the importance of embracing mistakes and facilitating open dialogue. Roche’s observations speak to a deep understanding of the human side of leadership, illustrating the need for compassion and connection in professional environments.

As we explore the journey of writing Roche’s book on becoming a successful first-time CEO, we hear about the value of storytelling in fostering understanding and empathy in leadership. With a mix of humor and hard-won wisdom, this episode encourages both aspiring and current leaders to develop solid support networks, embrace their uniqueness, and build meaningful relationships throughout their careers.

Join us on this captivating journey to uncover the keys to effective leadership and the transformative power of connection. Don’t forget to subscribe, share, and leave us a review to help spread the word!

Sponsored by Nico Van de Venne CommV

Chapters

• 0:06 Support in Leadership
• 16:12 Embracing Mindfulness for Performance
• 37:55 Jumping from Head to Heart
• 44:12 The Importance of Vulnerability
• 1:02:25 Meet David Roche: A Coach's Journey
• 5:08:40 Making Your Own Luck

Transcript

David: 0:00

And you look at people who are the greatest at all time the Federer's and the Tiger Woods and the whatever they have the expertise it's having someone in your corner with unconditional support for you and your line.

Speaker 2: 0:16

It's just a massive thing to help you perform at your best let me invite you to sit back, drop your jaw, tongue and shoulders, take a deep breath and, if you wish, close your eyes for a moment and feel the beat within. In a few seconds, you just jumped from your head to your heart and felt the beat within opening up to receive even more value and fulfillment out of your business and life. And today's episode? I am your host, nico van der Venne, confidant to successful CEOs, founders and entrepreneurs striving to achieve everlasting fulfillment. Welcome to the Everlasting Fulfillment Podcast with our next guest, david Roche.

Speaker 2: 1:08

David is an executive coach and mentor at Gray Area Coaching and works with first-time CEOs across many sectors. David studied psychology at Durham University and also has a professional hypnotherapy qualification. I stumbled a little bit there, david, my apologies. I saw you in therapy. It might help. His second book, become a Successful First-Time CEO, was published last March this year. Welcome, david, to the show. I've been looking forward to our conversation because you touch on a lot of things that I also touch on. Tell us a little bit about how you came to creating that book, becoming first time ceo.

David: 1:56

Thanks, nico I'm delighted to be to be here and god where to start me. I just sort of started the idea when I became a first-time CEO and realized that, no matter how, I thought, yeah, I'm ready for this. The natural progression had come from a big C-suite job in a big corporation, I went to a medium-sized company to be a CIL Rue Lair. So I thought, yeah, this is just the next stride, and then was completely blown away by the difference between being the solely responsible person for everything and I wasn't prepared for it. I did get some help from a coach then, which was great and invaluable and helped me think about leadership style as well, but I also had my own views on potentially how that could have been improved. And I saw, throughout my journey as a stefano, other people going into their position of Thule and seeing the stress and really having the very few opportunities where people did drop their guard and would go oh my god, what is it really like? Because they were in a safe space to do so and you were not a threat to them or an respectable distance between your organization, theirs or the sector and going oh my God, everyone suffers from this and the transition that they go through really isn't fit for purpose in order to set people up for success rather than failure. So I've been put into coaching myself.

David: 3:54

Actually, when I moved from being an exec C-suite in an exec C-suite position to moving into non-exec roles and chair roles and thinking, hang on. We have an expression in the UK noses in, fingers out the trouble in non-exec. Get involved, find out what's going on before you don't fix yourself. And so the skills of a coach in terms of support challenge or as coach terms of support challenge or as a coach and mentor, support challenge, asking good questions, all those things is actually very similar to the skills needed for a non-exec director. So I delved into it more. And how did a coach become a better non-exec director rather than a coach? But totally got into it? So that is the nature of things.

David: 4:48

People I was asked by someone say do you provide coaching and mentoring? And I said, well, yes, no, I don't know. I've been doing it for years informally. And then from there I developed a sort of side business. I only coached two or four people at one point and I still have the chairmanships that I do and I really think it's on that first time seeing you occasionally aspiring Because I've been there, felt the pain and understand that independence that's the key word.

David: 5:24

I think the independence is so critical. But to have someone to offload onto, let alone get any advice or insight or the coaching skills to go with the book was a cathartic exercise, as books often are to get things out of your head and onto paper. I worked in publishing, in and around publishing, for 25 years, so sort of respect the process of writing. I'd written one book before. That was a completely different thing, and this book I wanted to try and see if there was a way of putting down, almost like some of the benefits that get out of coaching in the written form so people could do it remotely Quite frankly, the business card for the commission business is much more than anything else.

David: 6:22

But I'm a firm believer in the power of stories. But I'm a firm believer in the power of stories. I'm a massive business book fan myself and that I am, and I read fiction generally rather than business books, but I'm a firm believer in the power of stories. And you know, rather than necessarily bullets, um, you know and your memory thing they're going yeah, because ABC the bullet points that what I remember, and I think people remember out of the stories is how you felt at the time and what the emotional response was. And so I wanted a book that went through. It was full of anecdotes and stories that actually gave that illustrated how relationships work, because I'm a firm believer that part of this transition issue is about building the right relationships. So then, looks at relationships internally, both to the board and chair, to your senior leadership team, that report into you and run the company to the wider company everyone else who works there, then outside as well wider company everyone else who works there Then outside as well, showing the media and partners and suppliers and so forth. So, as it's a book of relationships, there's no right or wrong answer.

David: 7:39

If I was talking to you and asking you a question, I'd say something today and we might make a good deal of what what you're thinking was and your view was. If I answer that next week you may be completely, you may have got out of the bed a different side tip side of the bed, a bit crankier that but but also that, that, um, if you're a boss I we've all had bosses who cracked the whip and when your sales are down, you need to try harder, harder, harder. And it's only when you actually get into the job and you experience it and you make mistakes. You can't search the reason why people in performance or whatever it might be, turn around and go. Well, actually, uh, what you didn't know is is my father, uh, just been diagnosed with Parkinson's disease, that I've just become the primary carer and my I'm split up from my wife?

David: 8:38

You know these. There's many reasons why I just decided this week not to try so hard at work. It's probably the least likely of the options. What I liked about that process was because there's no right or wrong answer in relation, but there might be wrong answers in how to conduct relation, but there's no right answer. My editor described it as a as a why-to book rather than a how To, and I thought that was quite a neat way of saying it A Y2 book.

Speaker 2: 9:12

Okay, that's very interesting because most of them indeed are the how To and what you see and so on, and I like the fact that you're mentioning a lot of stories in there.

Speaker 2: 9:23

So we had a short conversation in the green room about the terminologies that I use with C-level, like CO disease and so on, and you kind of recognize the symptoms that I brought up and I think one of the major ones is isolation, Because a lot of people are used to you know, you grow up into the chain of command, as they say, and at some point you come to a point where you're the big guy or girl who has to arrange everything. And you used to have these peers who aided you in achieving your goals, and now you're doing it solo. What kind of stories do you have in that?

David: 10:00

that. Well, they, they, they, I mean, and those peers in your internal can see that those peers are now from, from that second. Instead of being the ones you know having a laugh with you in the boardroom, they're the ones that all sit there waiting for you to leave now, and then they're, then they're all stuff. The paranoia kicks in and probably one or two of them think I should have got that job. But then if you're in the external town, it's quite often you'll find someone who probably should have been exorcised a while ago. Last ditch thing goes I am going to be so helpful and so nice and so friendly because they're relying on you to turn this around for them and give them another chance. And the one who's smiling most is probably the one who wants to axe you in the back because they should have got the job. But anyway, I don't know.

David: 10:58

I think there's something about Rather than a story. I think it's certainly something about isolationist thing, about armour and that the imposter syndrome, whatever you want to call it, and that loneliness of being at the top makes you put on an armor. Um, that says right, I know exactly what I'm doing, you know, have you know? I know exactly what all the answers are. That's the biggest thing is is thinking you need to know all the answers as having the best questions and and and I'm I've shown no weakness so I have this, this armor, this mask that I put up, that I wear, but actually what that does is make you even more isolated. It makes people go boy. They don't want any, any questions, they don't want any chance, they don't want any advice. You know they've got all the. They leave them be and so that isolation and continues and and the relationships that you need to build just don't sort of flourish and grow because you make your isolation even worse. An anecdote around that, I don't know. I just felt I when I joined Borders and the American bookstores, I ran the European operation so my bosses were all in, based in Michigan. One that time issue when you weren't used to that, at the day, as soon as you thought your day was ending, it was just starting. This is a killer. I know people who've got bosses that report but equally into sort of Australia and the US and I really don't know how they live because there's never any respite and how they live because there's never any respite. But I think that was a really interesting example of the isolation, because building any relationship across the ladder was really tough.

David: 13:05

This was a long time before COVID changed everything and the sort of conversation we're having now and everyone's used to this. You're used to establishing a relationship over a screen and hearing yourself talking into your headphones, but back then it was a very different thing. Even when I started my coaching a few years ago, I would always try and meet people. I was coaching in person, at least the first time, because it was really important to establish that relation. Now, as I say, you're used to it, back then, having the bosses of the states, I used to have spent an enormous amount of time, say, for example, doing the first forecast or whatever. You'd inherited a budget someone else's thing, but then some of the numbers are yours Working with your new senior leadership team, trying to get the culture in your organization or whatever, very inwardly focused and then externally presenting the results that are focused to say this is what our plans are, this is what we're going to do, we need this capital need and then going to the us and realizing that you were one of several territories outside of the us. The us actually didn't really care about the external territories that much and we're probably planning on selling them at some point. Um and um and the your csu ship, uh and was actually there was still a hierarchy beyond that. That. It was really interesting.

David: 14:45

And and and through shareholders and whatever, and um like it, like like you were when you were a sparring manager or something, and you get a chance to go and present something in the board. That's always a nightmare. You're probably at the bottom of the agenda. You've prepared a half an hour presentation and you've spent weeks doing it. The pressure's on and then and then the board is run by someone who he does not empower, just machine guns around the room by department to finding out what everyone's done wrong and then giving them a bollocking, so so that all is the creaking of the future, the gun over the past. Ad northing that with the front time you're supposed to go in and do your hot now presentation. You go in and your boss goes. Can you do it in 10 minutes? Because that's the law of black, all the plans go out the window. Everyone's pissed off. It's a really bad way of doing things and my very first presentation of the territory, the board, whatever it was meticulously made bottom up this budget and I agreed with my boss.

David: 16:13

Of course, I'm in the US on a Monday about to present to the group board, and it's a bank holiday in the UK, which is a public holiday. I can't get my fire station, I can't contact anyone, they're all doing whatever, but it'd be two hours for the meeting. My boss says I've just had, you know, I've heard a bit of sound check and I've seen some of relative she's numbers and basically, um, we need another x million on the bottom line, or five percent or whatever. And it's in the game, the whole business. And you get to the point just, okay, well, if you're telling me to do that, I can explain to everyone. But ultimately, what number do you want? And getting a number, just put that in. What about the schedules behind us? Who wants the number? The schedules behind us, who want the number?

David: 17:14

Suddenly, going from a sensible, managed, bottom-up, culturing budget to it's a number, that was just a real shock and again, I never wanted to turn to that. Of course, the first thing that happens when I got back was the CFO going what the hell? I was sitting there. I didn't know a number, I was going. Well, why did you agree. He goes sitting there going. I mean, it's a good question. I could have disagreed and I wouldn't be sitting here this way. Yeah, and he was dependent for that, for those sort of things, didn't he? Whatever you're getting on training courses or an experience in, I was more prepared for that from the unreasonable requests or just bad treatment. You got in a totally different context. Just hang on, how emotionally am I prepared to deal with something that's just a surprise and I can't change, and that might be through sport or anything, a driving incident, anything can fit that we're not just okay. So when was the last time I was in a board meeting when this happened?

David: 18:41

What I found in the benefits of coaching and mentoring for that are, to me, just telling the stories thing is really important. The number of times I've been with ceos then go okay, I'm really stuck with this. I don't know what to do in coaching. You still go right, what are you, what are your goals? Blah, blah, blah, and then you get so that the options and and you always the good stuff is when they've run out of things to say, and then you push them and eventually something happens. But that's pure, pure coaching, and I think this is where the balance of mentoring and coaching comes in. Ceos are really busy people. You can't push the railroad and we go. Well, I'll do anything else. We go. I've got five minutes. I'm paying you a bloody fortune. I need some help.

Speaker 2: 19:27

I'm a busy person, give me the solution. Come on, give me a solution.

David: 19:30

Yeah, but what I find then and I sort of stumbled on it there's a basic change of framework thing that you're taught as coaches, but inevitably what it ends up doing is saying well, let me just tell you something that happened to me that has some similarities, and you just go and see the story.

David: 19:51

You go blah, blah, blah it doesn't really matter what it is and inevitably after halfway through something go hang on a second, something you just said has triggered and the answer that I've been looking for, and the first time, wow, that's a key Already. Yeah, I know, but my view is that change of brain works is the key. You can see the answer to someone else's problem for far more reasons than seeing your own answer, but you've been discussing their problems for so long that they're surrounded by them. You can't see my answers Applies, but as soon as you start talking about your own problem, there's something problem-solving made and that connection, like a fork of lightning, happens to their own problem. It happens all the time. It's far too consistent to be purely by chance, and that's a really exciting moment to watch is that sudden insight of going oh my God, I'm just gone. And then you go.

Speaker 2: 21:01

What was it? I said it's a twinkle in the eye.

David: 21:03

They go. What was it? I said I can't remember. I've got no idea. What was it? I said that you're going to use. I can't remember.

Speaker 2: 21:08

I've got no idea.

Speaker 2: 21:10

I love seeing you use the term. Oh, I know what you mean and it's so funny. I stopped calling myself a coach and a mentor. I'd rather use the word confidant. That's really good, I like that. Yeah, you're like, I'm here, you know, you're in a safe space. Just tell me what's going on and we'll talk about it. And that's like you said. A lot of your peers that used to be your supporting group are becoming, you know, the other side of the war zone sometimes, and I find, indeed, that a lot of C-levels, when they switch over, they forget that actually building relationships is 10 times more important than actually becoming the next in line or the next one that steps up and they become frustrated because the people don't answer anymore, they don't tell them the truth half the time, because it's just, you know, let's put a fail in front of their eyes.

David: 22:07

You never have any. You never have any good decisions to make. If there's an easy decision brought to you, why would they waste your time with that? It's only the really, really horrible decisions when they come to you and go geez, so you see, your decision is just horrible. It's not sending us more of these lovely options.

Speaker 2: 22:34

It's always option C, isn't it Not A and B that they bring to the table? It's option C that you should find yeah.

David: 22:43

And instead it's always the least worst option. If an option is there which is just not necessarily great fun, you do have to make a decision as well. I'm firmly. There's one great CEO I work with and he always said a poor decision on a Monday is better, good, a poor decision on a monday is better than the decision on a friday and then and obviously they're going. But how's this going to go down? And actually explaining some rational, some some of the rationale, as much as you can is always helpful and but, but that but, but. People expect you to make a decision and you know that it's that inability to make a decision and that sort of damning things on the basis of waiting and waiting. Communication will solve half of that problem.

Speaker 2: 23:49

Yeah, indeed, and it's very clear that what I've experienced in the past as well, when I was in a couple of roles I was on the other side of the table looking at the C-level and what I saw as a big difference because I've been in several different companies is when a c-level knows what they've decided and they've got this. You know rigid decision.

Speaker 2: 24:12

I'm like okay this is going to be it, guys, we're going to take this, this thing, and even though, like three days later, it turns out to be a complete mistake to go that way and they still stand behind the fact that I took the decision but we are going to solve the problem because I know I'll take responsibility for this story and people start trusting you, and that's when the ball starts rolling. Sometimes I say you have to make one really big mistake to get the people on board, because you're owning your mistake. And then you're the man, you're the one that actually took a decision and roll with it and found out it was wrong. You owned it and you fixed it.

David: 24:52

and that's where people say, yeah, this is a person I want to follow yeah, and that that vulnerability is really key and that's the taking off of that mask, that that armor that I mentioned, that vulnerability.

David: 25:04

I remember one of the biggest things moving in industries from one to another and I'm actually making this horrible take from the first year because it was a very different culture and everything else but actually getting up at a company conference in front of all the store managers and she's just apologizing and I was just apologizing and I wasn't really apologizing for myself because it was I totally my boss. He came up with some ridiculous things, he was moved on and I just got up and apologized. I didn't try and explain anything but I actually never heard anyone from head office apologize for anything ever before and it was the beginning of an amazing relationship that was built because they just hadn't had it. You know I was doing sort of eating humble pie that tasted horrible to gritted teeth, but actually it was. It was probably the best thing that could have happened well, you, you have.

Speaker 2: 26:03

you have these pies that are rotten on the on the inside, but I think this apology was was very sweet on the inside and rotten on the outside, absolutely.

David: 26:14

That's a good side of that story.

Speaker 2: 26:19

So when you came down to writing that book, do you use a lot of materials from people that you work with, or is it mostly your own experiences?

David: 26:28

It's a lot of materials from people that you work with, or is it mostly your own experiences? It's a bit of everything. I I definitely other people um, I did a contact to a whole lot of people I'd work with who've gone on to do this and and and ask the for anecdotes and stories. Particularly, we'll take certain areas and say anyone got anything and actually broadcast out to people I didn't know. And I've got some great stories that were specific to certain things. So it's all sorts and, as I say, I try to pick the ones that I found entertaining as well as educational in there. The nicest thing anyone ever said about this book was someone said you know, it's not many business books that can claim to be a genuine page turner, but yours is so I thought that was a nice compliment.

Speaker 2: 27:28

That was the best compliment you could possibly guess yeah, I think I've got a new one going on the pile today. I see, yeah, that's the downside of podcasting. You meet so many people who have written books, amazing books, and you start reading one of them and you start collecting all of them and suddenly you're with like 30 or 50 books oh, let me send you a digital copy oh, that would be wonderful.

Speaker 2: 27:53

That would be wonderful, absolutely so, david, what would be one thing that you would, you know, broadcast out there as a, as a tip, or something that you really want to put out there for people that are listening today?

David: 28:07

I have two things, I think so, one from the beginning of your career and one later on in your career. And the beginning of your career one is and possibly it's on the way it's aspiring is don't underestimate how much you can make your own luck. Things may come around the corner. Be able to recognize, recognize what becomes long, but it's all about the preparation you've made in the years before that. And that's particularly around. You know, when you go for that interview for the ceo, probably most people on the short list can, could, can do the job. But the key is, can you be trusted to do the job? And there's so much groundwork internal candidate you can do to to gain that trust by asking your boss what the bit their biggest problem is, what's their biggest concern area, becoming an expert in that, taking on things that you know, proving that that transition you, you could be trusted to take on things you don't, you don't know and actually make them work. So don't underestimate making them work. And I think at the other end of the grid there's a sort of misunderstanding, particularly first-time CEOs, and that vulnerability. If I ask or get a coach or mentor confident, I'm going to stick with that too. A coach a mentor confident. I'm going to stick with that too.

David: 29:30

I am admitting that I'm not perfect. I'm admitting that all the states I am by all means sense are really bad, whereas having a coach mentor is not an admission that you're no good. It's completely opposite. It means you're prepared to learn change and you're aspiring to be better than you are currently. And all the best people will carry on having cages throughout their career. It's not, oh, you know, it was a little stage I went to when I was new and you look at people who are the greatest at all time the Federer's and Tiger Woods and whatever they're. Having someone just coaching expertise, it's having someone in your corner with unconditional support for you and you alone. It's just a massive thing to help you perform at your best.

Speaker 2: 30:33

Wow, those are very key parts of the story, absolutely. I love it that you did one on the beginning and one when you're going through the C-level story. Thank you very much, david, for bringing these very beautiful insights and kind of confirming a couple of things that I've also been doing in the past that I am not alone helping these people with their struggle. We're not alone. That's the key. So where can people find you and where can they order your book?

David: 31:05

So it's available on Amazon in several territories. So you go online. So not just Amazon, but most online retailers. It's called Become a Successful First-Time Senior and on it is the website address, which is wwwgrayareacoachingcouk. I think it's com as well. Actually, gray is spelled in the English way G-R-E-Y, not the US way, g-r-a-y grayareacoachingcouk. And on that website there's loads of information about me. There's loads of information about the coaching's, information about the coaching company and and the approach that that that I take, and there's lots of. There's a tab, media news, and there's lots of articles, interviews, podcasts and and the like to give you an idea um, a wider idea that we've heard about you over time, of other things that I have opinions of.

Speaker 2: 32:11

That's beautiful. Thank you very much, David. Thank you very much for taking time out of your busy schedule to talk to me today and to my listeners.

David: 32:20

Thanks so much, nick, it's been a pleasure.

Speaker 2: 32:24

Likewise, and to the listeners. Once again, thank you so much for listening to the podcast. Share with somebody you know who might need a little help uh, becoming a first-time ceo or in any other area of leadership and give us a five-star review and some beautiful comments, if you could, because the algorithms yes, they are, they are out there, the algorithms.

David: 32:53

I think, what if anyone wants a digital?

Speaker 2: 32:54

copy of the book. If they can buy it, I'll send it from company Henry Suryawirawan. Wow, that's a, that's a beautiful gift. So, yeah, listeners, uh, people that listen to the end already hit it, hit the jackpot, you know. Just let me know if you want David's copy and I will communicate with David and leave you your name, especially with David, at that point. Thank you very much for listening and have a good one.